Discussion:
Foot in mouth disease
Bryan L. Fordham
2002-11-03 17:48:47 UTC
Permalink
I'm afraid I was insufficiently clear: I'm looking for people who are
familiar with using refactoring tools with Java but still find Python
easier to refactor.
A lot of it, of course, depends on you religion 8)

I've worked at a company (now owned by verisign) for almost 2 years, and
all the development produced in my department is in java. But, to me,
it's much quicker for me to hack out quick scripts in python that
produce java code than it is to try and do that in java. I've gotten a
few people there to install python, and they all find it much easier to
use than java.

To me, refactoring is easier in python; my method is to hack out things
at the commandline and then, when I get something working, dump it into
a module. That works well for me and is much quicker than the
write-compile-debug-repeat cycle one is forced into with java.

As far as tools, I can't stand IDE's, but that's just me; I'm used to
text editors and so I am quicker in those. I try and stay out of those
"debates" as everyone stickes to their own opinion. My take is that you
should use what works best for you.

--B
Simon Brunning
2002-11-04 09:50:50 UTC
Permalink
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com [SMTP:aahz at pythoncraft.com]
3) Ask her for a date
<chuckle> She lives in Toronto (I'm in California) and I'm not her type.
Yeah, but asking her out would put her on the back foot, and you can win the
Java vs. Python argument for once and for all.

Cheers,
Simon Brunning




-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged.
It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else
is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in
reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. TriSystems Ltd. cannot
accept liability for statements made which are clearly the senders own.
Boudewijn Rempt
2002-11-02 10:14:39 UTC
Permalink
So I've been having a friendly argument for a long time with a friend of
mine who's a real Java booster. The current iteration was sparked by a
discussion of extreme programming, where along the way I repeated what
some people here have mentioned about Python being easier to refactor
than Java. She asked me what -- if any -- Java-based tools were used by
the experienced Java programmers who made that claim. She thinks that
those tools are superior to plain text editors (which are really all
that's needed for Python).
I've tried the various Emacs packages for refactoring -- forgot the names --
java, and I didn't like it. With Java, refactoring is, for me, mostly a
matter of renaming, moving stuff and deleting stuff. Jikes will tell me
what to do next. Having the Antipatterns book helps in refactoring Java,
too.

With Python, I'm using grep as my main refactoring tool -- but I'm trying
really hard to get into the habit of using bicyclerepairman (from emacs),
which seems superior the Java tools I have used.
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Richie Hindle
2002-11-05 13:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Boudewijn,
[...] Eric, a really great debugger written in PyQt
I've tried to install Eric with PyQt Non-Commercial and Qt
Non-Commercial, but as far as I can see, Qt Non-Commercial is only
available for Qt version 2.3 while Eric requires 3.0. Do I have to buy
a Qt licence to run Eric?
--
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com
Boudewijn Rempt
2002-11-03 13:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Boudewijn> With Python, I'm using grep as my main refactoring tool --
Boudewijn> but I'm trying really hard to get into the habit of using
Boudewijn> bicyclerepairman (from emacs), which seems superior the
Java Boudewijn> tools I have used.
I thought I saw a refactoring editor project on SF some time ago which was
written in and for Python. SF's search tool isn't working for me at the
moment. Does anyone know if this project is still active?
It that isn't bicyclerepairman, I wouldn't know. I try really
hard to remember to use bicyclerepairman (also Eric, a really
great debugger written in PyQt), but I'm so set in my ways that
I very seldom use them...
--
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.valdyas.org
Skip Montanaro
2002-11-02 14:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Boudewijn> With Python, I'm using grep as my main refactoring tool --
Boudewijn> but I'm trying really hard to get into the habit of using
Boudewijn> bicyclerepairman (from emacs), which seems superior the Java
Boudewijn> tools I have used.

I thought I saw a refactoring editor project on SF some time ago which was
written in and for Python. SF's search tool isn't working for me at the
moment. Does anyone know if this project is still active?
--
Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com
http://www.mojam.com/
http://www.musi-cal.com/
Jay O'Connor
2002-11-03 13:53:48 UTC
Permalink
So I've been having a friendly argument for a long time with a friend of
mine who's a real Java booster. The current iteration was sparked by a
discussion of extreme programming, where along the way I repeated what
some people here have mentioned about Python being easier to refactor
than Java. She asked me what -- if any -- Java-based tools were used by
the experienced Java programmers who made that claim. She thinks that
those tools are superior to plain text editors (which are really all
that's needed for Python).
Anyone wanna help me out here?
Nope, sorry. I really like Python, but I still miss the development
tools I have when using Smalltalk

Take care,
Jay
Jay O'Connor
joconnor at cybermesa.com
http://www.cybermesa.com/~joconnor


"God himself plays on the bass strings first, when he tunes the soul"
Bryan L. Fordham
2002-11-04 03:12:00 UTC
Permalink
"Bryan L. Fordham" <bfordham at socialistsushi.com> wrote in message
Post by Bryan L. Fordham
I've worked at a company (now owned by verisign) for almost 2 years, and
all the development produced in my department is in java. But, to me,
it's much quicker for me to hack out quick scripts in python that
produce java code than it is to try and do that in java. I've gotten a
few people there to install python, and they all find it much easier to
use than java.
Bryan,
Are you saying that you use Python scripts to write Java source code, or
that you Python scripts to write Java byte code, or that you use Python
scripts that are run dynamically by Jython?
I use python to write java code.

--B
Aahz
2002-11-03 15:29:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <3dc52a19.3339913 at news.cybermesa.com>,
Post by Jay O'Connor
So I've been having a friendly argument for a long time with a friend of
mine who's a real Java booster. The current iteration was sparked by a
discussion of extreme programming, where along the way I repeated what
some people here have mentioned about Python being easier to refactor
than Java. She asked me what -- if any -- Java-based tools were used by
the experienced Java programmers who made that claim. She thinks that
those tools are superior to plain text editors (which are really all
that's needed for Python).
Anyone wanna help me out here?
Nope, sorry. I really like Python, but I still miss the development
tools I have when using Smalltalk
I'm afraid I was insufficiently clear: I'm looking for people who are
familiar with using refactoring tools with Java but still find Python
easier to refactor.
--
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/
Robert Oschler
2002-11-04 00:25:12 UTC
Permalink
"Bryan L. Fordham" <bfordham at socialistsushi.com> wrote in message
Post by Bryan L. Fordham
I've worked at a company (now owned by verisign) for almost 2 years, and
all the development produced in my department is in java. But, to me,
it's much quicker for me to hack out quick scripts in python that
produce java code than it is to try and do that in java. I've gotten a
few people there to install python, and they all find it much easier to
use than java.
Bryan,

Are you saying that you use Python scripts to write Java source code, or
that you Python scripts to write Java byte code, or that you use Python
scripts that are run dynamically by Jython?

thx
Jay O'Connor
2002-11-04 03:52:00 UTC
Permalink
In article <aq3fd3$fv$1 at panix1.panix.com>, "Aahz" <aahz at pythoncraft.com>
I'm afraid I was insufficiently clear: I'm looking for people who are
familiar with using refactoring tools wit
I was more commenting on the line

"She thinks that those tools are superior to plain text editors (which are really
all that's needed for Python)."


Take care,
--
Jay O'Connor
joconnor at cybermesa.com
http://www.r4h.org/r4hsoftware
GerritM
2002-11-06 20:38:25 UTC
Permalink
"Derek Thomson" <derek at wedgetail.com> schreef in bericht
"Derek Thomson" <derek at wedgetail.com> schreef in bericht
<...snip...>
Do you by any means have the data at hand (kloc's for Java, kloc's for
comparable Python; ORB and/or IDL compiler)? I am highly interested in
any
substantiated evidence with respect to language
efficiency/expressiveness.
Nope, I was just replying based on my feelings for an average task,
which was the tone of the OP. Think about how difficult it is to do the
equivalent of a list slice assigment in Java, for example.
For some harder numbers, I compared JacORB (a Java ORB) to Fnorb (a
Python ORB), and Fnorb is about one half the lines of code of JacORB,
just for the core ORB itself.
Now, that's for an ORB, which is low level enough (marshalling and
unmarshalling data on-the-wire, and connection management), that it
doesn't play too well to Python's expressiveness. But still, that's
quite a difference.
As the application becomes higher level, I'd expect the gains to be much
greater.
--
D.
I share the same expectation. It would be nice to have some more factual
comparison of larger application(s). The shootout site
http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/ does a great job in comparing "small"
well defined problems. In general Python scores well in expressiveness
(=small amount of loc), but not as much as factors 2 or higher.

It would be interesting to know if our expectations are realistic for large
applications, or only hopes. I have seen many oversold technologies, which
don't pass a more factual comparison.

regards Gerrit
Andrew Dalke
2002-11-07 01:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by GerritM
I share the same expectation. It would be nice to have some more factual
comparison of larger application(s). The shootout site
http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/ does a great job in comparing "small"
well defined problems. In general Python scores well in expressiveness
(=small amount of loc), but not as much as factors 2 or higher.
There are some small-to-medium scale problems as part of PLEAC

http://pleac.sourceforge.net/

Hmm. I haven't contributed Python code in over a year, but it's
still in second place. Ruby is almost caught up. Maybe I should
work on things a bit more -- or anyone else here? :)
Post by GerritM
It would be interesting to know if our expectations are realistic for large
applications, or only hopes. I have seen many oversold technologies, which
don't pass a more factual comparison.
This is a hard comparison. Anything "large" means it takes a
lot of money or time, and not worth the effort to repeat in another
language when there are no new features.

Andrew
dalke at dalkescientific.com
Anton Vredegoor
2002-11-03 14:54:15 UTC
Permalink
So I've been having a friendly argument for a long time with a friend of
mine who's a real Java booster. The current iteration was sparked by a
discussion of extreme programming, where along the way I repeated what
some people here have mentioned about Python being easier to refactor
than Java. She asked me what -- if any -- Java-based tools were used by
the experienced Java programmers who made that claim. She thinks that
those tools are superior to plain text editors (which are really all
that's needed for Python).
Anyone wanna help me out here?
Three step solution:

1) Eat the food ;-)
2) Write a refactoring tool for Java using Python
3) Ask her for a date

Just my idea of a cure: Do not fight the disease but concentrate on
healthy activities.

Anton.
Mike C. Fletcher
2002-11-03 15:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Hmm, maybe the PyGTA group could help by distracting her with a barrage
of dates? It would certainly be less work than building the refactoring
tool, and one less person coding Java reduces the total pain in the
world just that much more ;) ...

We needed to have a meeting sometime soon anyway :) ,
Mike
In article <aq3dfb$spu$1 at news.hccnet.nl>,
Post by Anton Vredegoor
1) Eat the food ;-)
Good idea.
Post by Anton Vredegoor
2) Write a refactoring tool for Java using Python
Don't know Java well to do that.
Post by Anton Vredegoor
3) Ask her for a date
<chuckle> She lives in Toronto (I'm in California) and I'm not her type.
But we'll be seeing each other in Boston next weekend.
_______________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/
Peter Hansen
2002-11-03 20:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike C. Fletcher
<chuckle> She lives in Toronto (I'm in California) and I'm not
her type. But we'll be seeing each other in Boston next weekend.
Hmm, maybe the PyGTA group could help by distracting her with a barrage
of dates? It would certainly be less work than building the refactoring
tool, and one less person coding Java reduces the total pain in the
world just that much more ;) ...
We needed to have a meeting sometime soon anyway :) ,
On that topic, and since you mentioned it :-) :

Ian Garmaise is working hard to find a venue for the next meeting,
while I'm working hard to get regular ADSL access back up after
moving in the last few weeks. :(

Ian figures we'll be able to have the next meeting in mid-November,
barring unexpected setbacks.

He or I will post here shortly with an announcement, as soon as
something is firm.

Maybe Aahz would like to invite his Java friend to come out and
discuss refactoring code at the next PyGTA meeting. I'm sure
there are some others who have programmed in Java (I have, at
least) and might have a few things to say one way or the other.

And Mike could ask her for a date, too. ;-)

-Peter

P.S.: Since I never had a chance (or missed a few, anyway) to
put together a nice summary of the last meeting... for the record,
for those interested, the meeting went quite well, with something
like 18 people attending and a broad range of things discussed.
The intention is to hold regularly monthly meetings (though good
venues are an issue), not bother with membership fees (which
makes finding good venues a bit of an issue, hint hint), and
sort of leave things informal until a need arises to do something
differently. If you want to be put on the mailing list for the
meeting announcements, just ask (by email!).
Aahz
2002-11-03 15:32:27 UTC
Permalink
In article <aq3dfb$spu$1 at news.hccnet.nl>,
Post by Anton Vredegoor
1) Eat the food ;-)
Good idea.
Post by Anton Vredegoor
2) Write a refactoring tool for Java using Python
Don't know Java well to do that.
Post by Anton Vredegoor
3) Ask her for a date
<chuckle> She lives in Toronto (I'm in California) and I'm not her type.
But we'll be seeing each other in Boston next weekend.
--
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/